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Ep 279 Transcript


All right, welcome to this episode of The joyful scaling podcast. Whether you are a CEO of your own business, or a woman in corporate, you’re gonna eat up every morsel of this episode. We’re talking about women and leadership when two of my favorite subjects and the power of neuroscience how our brain impacts behavior, and ultimately our success. Meet my beautiful friend and sister in Christ Dr. Ma Sanchez. Dr. Sanchez is a leadership expert on neuroscience, resilience, performance and advancement for women in the workplace. As a neuropsychologist over the past 20 years, she’s dedicated her career to applying psychological principles to improve business and workplace outcomes right more success. Mae has developed a reputation for creating a transformational experience for CEOs, C suite, C suite leaders, business owners and women in senior leadership. And she teaches you how to use your neuroscience to a couple things identify your unique leadership advantage being the one that I really want to dive into today, so that you can lead with impact and influence. She has a strong track record for helping female leaders shift their mindset to achieve next level success, whether that’s a promotion in corporate or a more successful and profitable business. Now, listen, if you’re not a sciency person, no worries, neither am I. But together, we’re gonna break down everything you need to know. Let’s say, hey, two of may welcome to the show.



Hi, Jenny. Thanks so much for having me on.



Oh, I’m so excited to feature you, Amanda and I are in a mastermind together. And I just fell in love with her. And when I found out she was a sister of the Lord. I’m like, of course, of course. That’s the attraction. That’s where we came together. All right. So listen, I want to start with your story. I love it, how you went from corporate to entrepreneurship. And then the one thing you had to do differently? That changed everything forever. I’d love to hear that.



Wow. Okay. So here’s the story, picture it. May in corporate leading high levels of leadership, see sleep being a go getter, a people pleaser, doing everything for everybody meeting complex missions and a highly toxic organizational culture that was not inclusive to women, or women of color for that matter. So dealing with systemic bias. So where I found myself was, to say the least pigeon holed into being a workhorse, but a willing workhorse, because I came with this previous thought or belief about who I was in that environment. Now, I thought I had a pretty good handle on who I was, as far as my identity. Knowing what I brought to the table, as far as the value that I brought, I had a life before corporate. So I had a very good sense of who I was as a person. But putting me in that type of environment really ignited a different version of myself, one that I came to really battle against. And so that that is how my story walked itself out. After about a decade of doing that thing, where like I said, I was the go to expert, the answer to everything working 80 to 90 hour weeks, I became exhausted. And I found that I was doing the job of nine people not because I was counting and being so aware of what everyone else was doing. But I went on maternity leave to have my first child. And when I came back, they had hired nine people to do my job. You are kidding, I’m not I wish I was I really wish I was. But here’s the reality. And that moment, I thought, what does that say about me that they have to hire nine people to do my job. And this is aspects of what I was doing, still not my full job. And that meant that I was over delivering way too much, to say the least. But also that I wasn’t listening to myself, that inner voice inside that was saying I wasn’t happy, it wasn’t fulfilled, that I wasn’t trusting my intuition and being aware of the environmental cues that were going on around me in the environment that were you know, adding to this thing, this belief that I had about how I had to show up and how I had to do what I was doing. And so I would have liked to say that that critical moment was it for me, but it wasn’t okay, because I’m a high performer right. And so we’re used to doing a lot we’re used to having to manage multiple responsibilities and be there for people and be the route we’re used to that. So it took probably about another four or five years before I hit my my breaking point. Wait. And for me, it was one of those things I woke up one morning went to work had be there at 6am. By 730, I was driving myself to the hospital, I have a stress induced health crisis that was life threatening. Now, it was a combination of, you know, my own individual biology and being in a highly stressful environment and years of ignoring the importance of taking care of my health. So it wasn’t just like it happened out of the blue. But it was this powder keg, if you will, that came to the surface, once I was in, in my body and had this mental acknowledgement that I don’t want to be here. And that intersection of the cognitive, the biological, and the behavioral response is where I found myself needing to now go back and do the deep inner work. So I never went back to work, I was off of work for nine months, I had to learn to live again, to think differently about myself to really unpack, you know, how did I get here? How do I get so off track? Why did I feel stuck, you know, all those introspective questions, and really nurture myself in truth, times the, you know, the, the not sweet truth, the bitter truth, but the truth, nonetheless unadulterated truth, and come back to you know, who I am in Christ, who He created me to be, and understand where the messages of the environment or even the messages I was telling myself, were complicating that very simple truth of who I am in Christ and who He created me to be.



Wow. I mean, that’s powerful. And it’s, it’s when you said, you know, you came back and nine people were taking taking over your responsibilities. The first thing I would have done as bold 56 year old, right, not back in the day, I would be like, I’d go in, I’d say, Okay, wow, it’s like, I’m getting quite a race here. That’s what I’d say. I kind of look around like this. And they say what? I don’t know, you had to hire nine people to take my place. I don’t know, whatever you’re paying them, wrap it up and put it in a bow and send it my way. I mean, that’s insane. Yes. Yeah. I mean, but I want to, I want to take you back to I don’t even know how, although I guess you just do what you do. I don’t even know how with that, that you could have gotten to work except what you said, or you identified at the time, and you are still but in a different place. Like I’m a high performer. So I know that they didn’t treat me well. I know this place is toxic. Did you read? Or did you realize that? Did you realize it was Yeah,



I knew that? You know, that was part of the daily dialogue. But you know, we tell ourselves these messages. And I want to minimize the fact that there are many women that go to work every day, because they have real priorities in their lives, families to care for they have to bring home an income. That was very much my experience, but the belief about how I do that is where I believe it got a little fuzzy. Because, yes, in the real sense, I did need to bring in an income. But at what expense?



Wow, that’s a mouthful right there. Wow, that’s amazing. All right. So this whole idea of mindset, and as you just said, belief, not really about who I am, necessarily, although you did have to do inner work there. But but how you did it? So as you work with your clients, maybe we can even do that, like, Can we get a peek into how you help them discover kind of who they are? Or how they how they are doing things at work that aren’t working? Like how how they got there, I guess. Does that make sense?



Yeah, yeah. You know, how we as coaches and strategists, sometimes tract people that are very much like ourselves, or like we were at different times, or seasons in our lives, so many of the women I work with, we have very similar experiences. You know, I’m maybe a few steps ahead. But I understand how this can transpire. So there’s never any judgment there. I want to start with that. Because first we have to be able to get to the truth before we can unpack what’s not working. And sometimes you got to work through a few defenses, right? And so it may not always be obvious that I’m doing these things. It may not be something that I’m readily consciously aware of. It might be something that takes a little more massaging to understand how that could transpire. And so I start with, you know, oftentimes, many of the women I work very intellectual, very intelligent women. And so I start with the science, I help them to understand that the behaviors that they’re exhibiting are brought about as a result of the biochemical process that is really just a mix of the unconscious, which we are not always aware of the things we do naturally like breathing, blinking your eyes, you know, all of this stuff happens on autopilot, that’s the unconscious. But it’s also a mixed mix of the conscious to stuff that we’re very much aware of. And once we become aware that there’s a biochemical process happening to our behavior, then I take them working backwards, we work from the behaviors that are a problem to understanding what’s underneath the behavior, the beliefs, the thoughts, and where they originated from. So that’s where we start. And then helping them understand kind of the connection, you know, there is an emotional response that you have, when you decide that this is the goal, you know, and understanding that when you activate that part of your brain, that this is the goal, it then starts to create a plan, right? And once I create that plan, then the neurotransmitters in my brain decide, okay, that feels good to do that. And we keep getting caught in that loop in that cycle of the visual picture of achieving a goal, what that means to us and how it makes us feel. And so once you realize there’s an emotional connection to this behavior, then you understand how to break it. Because sometimes we have good emotional responses to something that may be unhealthy for us. Does that make sense?



Yeah, so can you give us an example of that last one, like I’d like an unhealthy circumstance, or something that you have to kind of help your women through.



So let’s just say for instance, I get a lot of folks that work 90 hour weeks now, in the moment, why not feel good to not have any sleep, and to always be on and have to carry your phone around and answer emails. But when you’re sitting up in that meeting, and they’re acknowledging your team, about all the things that were accomplished under your leadership, it feels good in that moment. So then it becomes a rationalization that all that behavior and everything I’m sacrificing, and everything I do, I’m dealing is for the ultimate good. But unfortunately, what happens is we continue to string these behaviors, these beliefs and these actions together, that ends up creating this unhealthy picture. And then this is the strategy piece, when I get into working with women that are trying to increase their influence in a corporate environment. What it ends up doing is painting this misperception of who you are and how you add value, and it becomes very difficult to shift those perceptions because then you’re stuck in being seen as that workhorse, like I said, that I had painted that very clear picture at



Wow. Okay, so I’m gonna get practical. And if I’m going too deep, let me know. So I tended to be a workhorse. And you know, we’re like minded. We’re super smart. I want to get the A, I want to get the accolades and trial, of course, back in the day, I wanted to win. I didn’t want to lose, right? So I’m going to put in the time and pour through all these medical records to get my doctor off, right. But but when you’re working with someone, and you’ve identified that that is them, they are a workhorse, and they’re approaching burnout, like, how do you even begin to when she says, But I have to in order to keep my job like how do you



begin? How do you begin? Well, you begin with what’s not working, and then it becomes a pros and cons of cost benefit analysis, right and intellectual process about, again, at what costs. So if you’re, if your marriage is fragile, if your children are not speaking with you, if you miss every family gathering, if you’re not sleeping, and you’re having anxiety attacks sitting at your desk, is it worth the cost of this experience. And so these are some things, we read the spine saying it’s an uncomfortable truth. And people that come to me to work with me are not coming often because everything is good. They’re often coming because things are not going well. And they want to change it, but they maybe just don’t know how now that doesn’t mean that they don’t put up a little bit of resistance when it’s time to get down to the actual change part. But the reality is, it’s not working.



Yeah, human beings don’t like change and our brains say No, keep it the same. It’s okay, keep you safe. Right. It’s crazy. I want to shift gears just a little bit. You said here in the notes that a corporate job can bring this false sense of security. I’d love you to talk about that.



Yeah, so this was my experience anyway. And a lot of the experiences of women that I worked with this idea about to have to I have to be here, this is the only way to make money. This is how I serve that my best Hey, no one else is gonna pay me six figures to do this job. I remember saying that. And so Oh, really, I think this is where we up level with the women that I work with about helping them to see not just what they’re doing instrumentally in the day to day my title is, but also about, you know, what are your transferable skills? What are your strengths? What are the things that make you unique? The different is better concept, rather than trying to be like everyone else. Because when the layoff notices come, when there isn’t a merger, and you’re let go, when you are maybe too sick to work, or things shift, and you have to find another way to carve out your niche, so that people know about who you are and how you serve. This comes back to kind of how do you want to brand yourself? Do you want to brand yourself as a corporate data data data? Or do you want to, you know, brand yourself with your unique way of adding value. And so that’s why I say this idea about falling into this security about the job will always be there may be a dangerous place to be. And so if you kind of think of it from a top down perspective, as strategic overview, you really have the power to transcend your environment, once you tap into your strengths and your gifts.



For that sounds good. Transcend I picture like like being above everything and actually being in control to a degree right that way. Okay. Okay, great. Let’s let’s talk about the five personality types that can trip you up in life, business, and entrepreneurship. What are they?



Yeah, okay. So this is just my fun little take on things really, you know, we hear about impostor syndrome a lot when it comes to women, especially women working in the corporate industry. But if you’re also an entrepreneur, this could be something that you’re plagued by as well, or this cannot be the case, not every woman has impostor syndrome, okay, maybe you just have lack of an effective strategy and minor lapses in confidence. It could be that, but if you happen to have impostor syndrome, you’re not alone, because 70% of high performers have it. And it shows up in different ways. And this is where I think people maybe don’t visualize how this can impact your life. So five personalities, right? The one I call the superstar, these are the ones that have a tendency to push themselves because they have something to prove, right. And they want to prove that they’re not imposters. But if they’re not successful at something, then they get stressed out. So that is what the superstar is the Lone Ranger is the one that likes to go it alone, they tend to want to do everything on their own, they might ask for help, maybe. But if they have to ask for help and be like dependent upon someone for their work, they feel like it’s a sign of weakness, and they accept it as a defeat. So that lone ranger person often tries to go it alone. They don’t want to feel like a fraud. And then you have the intellectual, this the person who’s a thinker, they analyze things, they tend to think things in stride, they think about how they can figure things out. And if it’s something that’s too difficult, they think they’re not good enough. Why can I figure this out? I’m smart enough, I should be able to. And so sometimes you see this with entrepreneurs when they have to pivot, okay, in their business, and they’re like, it’s not working. I’ve been doing this for three, four months, like, can I figure this out? And then they get ahead thing about it. So that’s an example of an intellectual, that expert is the person that is I need, I need to be in the know, I have to know all the answers about what’s going on. Because if I don’t know, then I don’t feel like I’m the expert. Okay. So this person is less likely to take risks. If they think that there’s any potential that they could look foolish, unprepared, or less than capable or competent. You’re gonna lose that person. That’s the expert. Okay. And then the last is the perfectionist. Now, people don’t see perfectionist as struggling from impostor syndrome, because it’s kind of sneaky in that way. But this group, they’re all or nothing, they’re 100% in or they’re 100% out. If they can’t do it exactly the way they want to do it, then they won’t do it at all. They’re the glass is half empty people. They’re sensitive to feedback. They’re sensitive to failure, setbacks and challenges. Okay, so this person might spend a lot of time in that analysis paralysis, thinking about thinking, but they don’t execute, because if they execute it, it fails, that it says something about them. Okay. And you see this also in folks that are entrepreneurs, right. So impostor syndrome, if you don’t keep it in chat, it can affect your performance. It can affect your career, it can affect your business. But the important thing to kind of pull you out of that is where you can start making A list of your wins, your accomplishments, your achievements, reminding yourself and sometimes even coaching yourself through those moments where you feel less than confident.



Wow, I’m gonna land right there where you ended. So coach yourself through that doubt. And through the, you know, impostor syndrome. I know what you mean, I want to make sure everybody listening walks away with the ability to self coach in that regard. Can you give us like a framework? Or how do we how can we do that?



Yeah. So I really think that, you know, one of the ways that I help my clients do this is I call this the neurocognitive triad, okay? A lot of words to basically say, we take what’s unconscious, and we make it conscious. So we look at three main beliefs. And we look at your belief in yourself, your skills, your abilities, your talents, we look at you your beliefs, and who you are as a person, your characteristics, your values, the things that make you uniquely you. And then last, we look at your ability to execute on whatever your goal is. And then sometimes, this has to do with your belief in your ability to perform something, when we see that there may be breaks in any of those areas. This is where we start coaching, if you have a break in, you know who I am, my strength, my character, my values will coach there. If the break is in your skills, abilities, or talents, I’m not good enough, I’m not this, I’m not that the coach there, if it has to do with whether or not you’re able to perform at a level that you need to in order to execute than we coached there. And so we look at what are the situational triggers that you could be dealing with? Maybe this trigger is I launched a new product in my business, and the sales were abysmal. That’s the situation. So then what kind of emotion is evoked by this, the situation is very common to many business owners, maybe the emotion is, I’m failing in my business, I’m really sad and down about it, maybe I’m anxious, because now I think I’m not going to get future sales. You know, it could be any of those kinds of emotions. And then, you know, what is the thought that’s attached to that? What is the cognition as a result of that? Are you starting to believe, like, all of a sudden, that things could swiftly change for you? And then you’ll be at a business? Are you going from this all or nothing thinking, to thinking that your business is over? What are the cognitions that are swimming around in there? What are the emotions that are swimming around there, and then as a result of those cognitions, those emotions that you’re having, then what kind of behavior is now demonstrated by those cognitions and emotions, maybe it’s as a result, you don’t do anything for the next three months, you don’t launch any new products, you don’t try to do any kind of lead generation, you don’t talk about your business to people you don’t share about how you can help. So we look how those behaviors may be showing up. And then last, we talked about, you know, what is the result that came about as a result of that behavior? Well, because I didn’t launch any products, I didn’t do any lead gen, I didn’t tell anybody about how I help, then I’m back where I started this self fulfilling prophecy of having a business that is now you’ve attached to this emotional response that it’s failing. So when we get to these points where we have, you know, the situation, the cognition, the emotion, the thoughts that come up with that behavior, and the result, then we have to work backwards and figure out what is it that we want to accomplish? Ultimately, where do we want to end that we want to have a thriving business? So what would that look like? What would we do differently? You know, what kind of cognitions would we have? If we wanted to have a thriving business? What kind of emotions would we have? You know, this visualization of what it would look like to have a thriving business? What would that feel like to really take you there so that you can imagine that experience and attach an emotional connection to it, because the more likely you are to attach that emotional connection, the more likely you are to then act on that goal? So then the behavior changes? And what might that behavior look like? If you have a thriving business? What things would you be doing on a day to day basis? And then that’s how we get to the result.



Okay, and so and so is it like, and I’m trying to picture this. So it’s almost like you’re looking at the cognition and the emotions and all these different categories that you outlined. And you just think it through like, this is like on the top of the paper, maybe you’d say I want to make a half million dollars this year. So here’s how I have to think here’s how I have to feel is that is that very applied for version



ppm? Yeah, it’s a very simplified version, but when you’re dealing with the coaching through the process, of course, you’re going to have more dialogue about around the city. ration, you’re going to have more dialogue around the thoughts and the cognitions that pop up, you’re going to have more dialogue around these emotions. And that’s where we start to get deep. Because sometimes those emotions can be attached to old experiences that you’ve had, or current experiences that you’ve had that cause you to think a certain way. And so really, it is an individualized experience for that person as they’re going through the coaching process to help them unpack what are those messages that they’re responding to that’s creating these types of evidenced behaviors in the real?



Wow, so good, so much to think about? Because I don’t really examine. Well, now I do, but I mean, I’m not as a person, I’m not one to think, go deep in my brain and see where it comes from. But that’s where everything comes from. I mean, our thoughts come from there, and everything we’ve done so So on that note, if there’s any woman listening, whether she’s in corporate, or she is, you know, building a business, she might even be I have a couple of clients. I’ve had couple of clients in the past that have had six figures, multi six figure businesses, but yet they still feel like this imposter, and they really have these doubts. So how can how can how can we were that woman out there that feels this way? How can we believe that we are a leader that we can achieve the goals that God has, has put in front of us?



Yeah, I really believe it’s an inside out process to tell you the truth, Judy, but, you know, I, I coach women that are believers, but that is not the positional framework of the work that I do. I also work with people that are in the secular world and incorporate and that are not believers. But you know, for the Christian woman that is listening to this broadcast, I’m going to speak to you in truth Sr. and I really believe as far as it being an inside out process, that you really have to see yourself in the context of how God created you to be who He created you to be your unique talents, your abilities, your gifts, you have to understand that as you are evolving in your ideas about yourself and your beliefs about yourself that you were created from something good for something good, that doesn’t make no mistakes, and you don’t make no junk. Okay, so I think that’s the first belief stop period that you have to master. And once you can go from that, then it’s really about understanding now, if I’m having these limiting beliefs, these negative beliefs that seem to hijack my confidence and get me off track, you really need to unpack way that where they are coming from where they originated from, because that’s going to be the key to being able to defuse it and eliminate the power that it has over your thinking and your life.



Wow. That’s the kind of power that we have in Christ. Right. And so that’s where I think, ya know, I’m sure you’ve heard me say it before it to me, we Christian ladies should be the most joy filled, calm, successful, you know, in control, like no worries type of entrepreneur or business leader ever? And I’m sure you agree, right?



Yeah. And it’s not easy, right? It’s not easy, because you exist in a world that sends different messages. And so even if you want to go with the best intentions to stay positive all the time, and God build and shape your world all the time, the world in the environment is going to tell you different. So how do you plunder through that and still keep your true identity? Well, I think it comes from understanding that you don’t have to sell out to sell up. Oh, okay. And so what that means is don’t believe the lie, everything that glitters ain’t gold, you don’t have to be something else to sell and be successful at. And this is even for women in corporate, you don’t have to be something else. In order to elevate your your career, your leadership or your business, you just need to be true to the absolute core. And the more that you are authentic about who you are, the more that you are in tuned with your gifts, your talents, the way you add value, and the more that you’re able to articulate that so when it lands with your audience in a way that they receive it as value then then you’re unstoppable



ah, what you just said is a mouthful and I love it true to the absolute core. And we need to communicate that in a way that your audience whoever that be, you know, the the guys in corporate or the managers in corporate or your, you know, prospects, you’ve got to communicate with them in a way that they really see the value. Wow, that was that one moment if that was it. That’s all this all this episode needs to be them. So so good. Thank you mate. I understand you have a free Yeah, for all of our listeners. So tell us about that.



Yeah, I do. So if you happen to be a woman in corporate or you have your own business, I work with business owners as well. And you would like to get some shared strategy around changing your mindset so that you can show up more powerfully in your career, then I’m offering a complimentary consult for women that would like to do that, as far as you know, watching this podcast and wanting to go for next steps.



Awesome. That’s great. I’m going to make sure to have the link in the show notes. Now that we as we wrap up, but I’m also going to leave a link to your website because your website’s amazing. I forgot to mention that a May is a an author, she went to see her videos on her website. I mean, she is so well, you’ve heard she’s very polished. But I’m telling you this, this woman just blows my mind. And I know we only cracked the surface because of time. But thank you so much. This has been so good, what is on your heart to share as we wrap up that we didn’t get to address?



Wow, I just I think it’s more of a reiteration of what we talked about that, you know, daughter, if you’re out there listening, and you want a different version of your life, that can be created very quickly. And as little as 30 days if you decide to be consistent and committed to the process. But understand that you may have to go deep first, so that you can get further faster in your career or business. So I would just encourage you, and invite you to be brave enough to take that first step.



Wow. So good. And they thank you so much for being here. Powerful episode. All right, ladies, listen, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, in my mind, you can see I’m kind of stuttering because I’m really trying to process all of these goodies that and they just gave us but if you’ve loved this episode, as I’m sure you have, and you haven’t yet left a review, would you please take just a moment and do that now especially if you are listening on Apple podcast, we just learned we went from one at the top one and a half to the top 1% I want to get to the top like 100 So let’s keep going share this out with your fellow sisters in Christ whether they’re stay at homes and we’re whether they’re corporate or whether this is a podcast, a possibility for you and in Christ we know everything is possible. So once again, thank you for listening. Thank you for your support, and we will see you next time.


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