Right. Welcome to this episode of The joyful scaling podcast. If you struggle with words, you’re going to love this episode, because it’s all about turning your audience into attics like they’re going to be junkies who can’t get enough of what you’ve got. And how do you do that with captivating copy, I am so blessed here to introduce to you a copy coach and copywriter extraordinary Jamie Corojo. Jamie has written copy for six and seven figure campaigns at one of the top marketing agencies in the personal and professional development space. And for the past seven plus years, she’s worked with hundreds of business owners across various industries, she helps them take their ideas and their truth bombs and their decades of wisdom that comes so naturally to them right when they speak. And she helps them translate it to copy on the page. So they can attract more high end clients online. And I met Jamie inside a high level coaching mastermind that I’m in and I know firsthand how amazing she is at making copywriting simple, fun and very profitable. So let’s welcome Jamie.
Hi, thank you so much, Judy, it’s so lovely to be on with you and everyone who’s listening. Thank you so much for having me.
Absolutely. I you know, copy is something that so many people and you know, we have kind of a similar audience as well, you know, coaches and other business owners. They try to write something and their brain just freezes. So I want to start right out of the gate with that. What do you see as the biggest challenges when it comes to copy?
Absolutely great question I’ve seen a lot over the years, for sure. And definitely, one of the biggest ones I see is although a lot of the the coaches and business owners I work with are very highly experienced, they’ve we know whether you’re just starting out, we have years of experience, but a lot of the ones I work with have been around for you know, decades, they have all these awesome testimonials, they are really great at connecting kind of one to one or just connecting with people in general speaking, a lot of them have been on stages. And yet when they sit down to write copy, it’s like their mind goes blank. And they just don’t know what to say. And so I think that’s one of the biggest disconnects I’ve seen over the year is just figuring out how to translate their genius and connecting with people and speaking on to like the written word on, you know, in on their sales pages in their emails, and in their online marketing and through their copy. And that’s definitely the biggest one I’ve also seen. I think another one is just like this block around, not knowing or feeling like it just takes so much time or it’s not the best use of their time, they could be doing other things, maybe, you know, they don’t really consider themselves a writer or a quote unquote, creative. And so they don’t go into this mode of like, this is like a tedious task I wish I didn’t have to do. And then if we start right with that it kind of affects everything else. And then of course, it’s something we don’t want to do or we don’t put a lot of energy into, and then we don’t get the results we want. So those are kind of the top top challenges that I’ve seen for sure.
Okay, awesome. And I know and that thing about, I don’t know what to say, I think is so interesting, because you know what I’ve said to my people, look, go on Zoom, and just talk. Yeah. Because then you just kind of let the ideas flow instead of stopping them because I think that little cursor, the blinking cursor when you’re trying to do the email, makes it like oh my gosh, I don’t know what to say. But wait a minute, then it’s like, okay, so what is your philosophy of your business? And how do you step by step, take your clients from where they are to where they want to go, that kind of thing. So that’s so good. Well, I understand that you believe that each of us has some unique juice, and you bring that out. So tell us about that.
Yeah, this is something I kind of have inadvertently been kind of preaching under the under the surface of my teachings, but it’s actually come to the kind of forefront for me recently, when I was kind of rebranding some of my stuff. And I realized that and this is something I had read in one of my favorite books is called. So you think it’s so you want to write by Brenda Yulin from like, she’s a writer and journalist from the early 19 hundred’s and she talks about this idea of how there’s no like an original people were all original and have something important to say. And it’s kind of brought up for me this idea that we are all born as really creative beings, and it’s only through time, you know, and through hearing from feedback from, you know, parents, teachers, friends, even the most well intentioned people that kind of slowly over time, just kind of dim our light on an even unintentionally or think about you know, it was ever in you know, ever take an art class in high school or in college. And, you know, you got some feedback on a piece and it wasn’t really great feedback. Maybe they told you if something wasn’t working, so then you’re like, you know what, that’s it, I’m not meant to be an artist and you kind of move on to something else, right? This happens to us in all areas of our lives, whether it’s writing art, dancing, right, and if we’re not careful, what can happen is we end up kind of retreating into our own shell, and we become kind of, limited by, by these lies are these limited beliefs that we’re not, you know, we are all of a sudden, we become that person who’s like, I’m just not a writer, I’m not a creative, or, you know, I don’t dance. I don’t, I can’t paint, right? And it’s like, well, why if we think back to when we were really little, we didn’t know, you know, before, we had all these limits put on us or allowed ourselves to kind of fall into them. We the world was our oyster, right, we could do anything, we were, you know, Pollock, or, or Van Gogh, or, you know, the best writer, the best dancer. And so it’s, it’s very interesting. And why I love this idea too, especially with copy is because I recognize I am a writer, I do this for a living, I love this stuff. It’s not the case for everybody, right. And so it’s kind of become almost like my secret mission here to get people to love writing copy, even though it’s not in, you know, traditionally known as something that people look forward to doing, because I think it presents us especially in business, with a really awesome opportunity to tap into our creativity, and most of us and this and to get back on track with what was going I get so passionate about it, I like dive into rabbit holes, I always have. This is actually one of my favorite kind of tips for copy. Creating copy, too, is always have an outline, I actually have some notes here that I’m referencing to to keep me on track. But basically, what what I love about this is they’re really like for business owners. And for those of you who are listening who might think, you know, I’m not I’m not a writer, I’m just not that creative. How do I know what to say? I would argue that you’re actually a lot more creative than you believe. And then you might believe, and you’ve already got what you need. And this is where we go back to that idea that if you’re the type of person who, when you’re sitting face to face with someone, or when you’re interacting with a client or customer, like there’s just this chemistry, right, it flows, there’s a natural connection, if you’re capable of doing that. It’s just figuring out the right tools and system and having the right kind of mentor person to help pull it out of you. So that you can transfer that online and behind the computer, right so that the reader someone who’s sitting maybe across the world, or in another country, reading your words on the page can feel that same connection. And that’s what I strive to help business owners and coaches do. It’s definitely a process. It’s not something that you just kind of wake up one morning and figure out, but I think the first step is allowing yourself to be open to tapping into maybe more creativity than you might be used to when it comes to your marketing online.
Wow, that was so good, that I really appreciate so much of what you said, especially when you said you’ve already got what you need. And so I firmly believe that too, as a CEO. And so if as a CEO, we need to write copy, and we should lead the charge on messaging and all that kind of thing. We do have everything we need. It’s kind of like you got to find it within yourself. So how do we begin to do that?
Excellent question. Yes. So there’s a number of tips and and techniques that I like to teach on. But I think the very first one is kind of getting yourself into that. That mindset when you sit down actually, I love this because this came up recently, I won’t mention any names, but with a client of yours, Judy, and your high end coaching program. She said something that I absolutely loved. It was just yesterday on our call. And she said, you know, Jamie, what if I’m like new to this online marketing thing, right? Like, I’m not really, you know, I’m the type of woman who like I made my deal sit in, in the bar at the bar, drinking a beer or something, I’m just drinking a beer. But she said, you know, sitting at the bar sitting across from somebody, right? And I was like, Oh, I love that. Because that’s exactly what I would recommend, when you sit down to write that you kind of tune into Imagine yourself sitting at the bar with, you know, your client, Bob, or, or Michelle or whoever your ideal client is, imagine you’re sitting there talking to one specific person and try to write through that lens. Or if you’re, you know, recording yourself which as you mentioned, you you share with your clients to record themselves on Zoom. I like to use there’s an app called otter.ai that transcribes what you’re saying as you say it so then later, you can literally just like copy and paste and use some of that gold that comes up. And first. So it’s getting into that mindset of thinking, Okay, I’m not sitting in front of a screen, just trying to talk about myself and kind of sing my own praises. I’m actually trying to connect with someone. So let me summon that person up in my mind, whether it’s you sitting at the bar drinking a beer, or if it’s you in a cafe, and if that’s still difficult one layer deeper, for those of you who feel like okay, if I try that, then I still kind of get caught up on what’s the right thing to say to this person. Then I would recommend like literally to pretend that you’re like chatting it up with one of your best girlfriends. And that might sound funny and what comes up versus kind of just allowing yourself to get a little Hold on the page, right? No one’s gonna see this until you publish. And so allowing yourself to kind of just throw all of your personality, maybe even a little TMI in there. And I always say that it’s so much easier to pull back, right, so to have something and then later, kind of censor it or make it a little bit more appropriate for your audience than to pull something from nothing. And oftentimes, it feels like we’re trying to pull something from nothing. And that’s where this block occurs. And then we either take forever to write a LinkedIn post or an email, we just don’t do it at all. And so that’s kind of a fun way, a fun kind of exercise to get yourself to just kind of let your guard down when it comes to that, that block with writing copy. And I find it to be a fun experiment. And I always say at least, you know, give it a try and allow yourself nobody’s watching, right, you can be in your office or at home alone doing this, and just allow yourself to have some fun with it.
Wow, I really appreciate that. I love that you said it’s about connecting at the end of the day. Better, the better, you know, your ideal client, the better, you’ll be able to give them what they need, which I always have in the forefront of my mind. What do they need? Or what don’t they know? Or what do they need to be reminded of? Or what new something Can I introduce to them, that would really be helpful. So that’s so good connect idea. Because ladies, listen, it’s about the connecting, writing is just you reaching out to them your ability to do that, instead of one on one. It’s one to many, whether that’s social, or email or whatever it happens to be. And I also love also the the idea of writing to your best friend, because when you can be you, I think that’s when you’re most effective. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, so So I don’t know, I don’t know if there’s any other tips, but those are good. Ladies, I would love to hear. Once you try these, I want you to try these. I don’t want you to listen to the podcast, I want you to implement what you’re learning, and then write back and let me know if this helps. Okay, what other tips do we have?
Yeah, I got a ton. I got a couple more I’ll share today. But I’m actually gonna go back to something you just said that that really landed because and I know you’re you do an excellent job at this duty and your marketing. And we’ve worked on this capacity to about focusing on the ideal client. This is another huge kind of mistake or misconception that I see a lot of business owners have is this thought that they have to kind of talk themselves up on the page or write about themselves. And it can often feel braggy or just inauthentic to be like me, me, me, me, this is why you should hire me, this is what I do. And what’s really great about copy effective copy is that actually the most effective copy doesn’t, isn’t I or me focus, it shines the spotlight on your ideal client. That takes a ton of pressure off of you of having to be like, Okay, here’s why I’m amazing, right? It’s actually not, it is important later with certain pieces of credibility and making people know like who you are and what you stand for. But at the beginning, when you’re trying to get people in the door, the way you do that is by shining the spotlight on them, and showing them that you understand, like you said exactly what they’re going through their specific, unique challenges right now. And I can tell you, if you Google right now, and whether this is across industries, across professions, whether you’re looking at real estate, financial services, business coaching, health coaching, literally, you can pick any specialty, if you start Googling for those services, I can guarantee you will find pages and pages of search results and websites that are me and I focused and not focused on you, the reader. And that’s one of my my biggest tips and biggest piece of feedback I’m constantly giving is lead with you, the reader, focus on the reader, show them that you understand because so many people are not doing this. And it is a huge missed opportunity. And it’s actually one of the biggest opportunities because so many people are not doing this, when you do it, you really stand out in the mind of the right person, because they’ll be looking at you even if they’re weighing you against three or four other options. And they go to their website, or they look at the social media and it’s all me, me, me, I this is why we’re great. And why you should hire us versus, you know, Are you exhausted right now? Are you looking for a career change? Are you looking for the home of your dreams, right? And then you start to get them and pull them in and they’re like, Okay, like they they’re your start perk up and they’re like, okay, this person, they’re talking about me, I feel I see myself there. And that’s the very first thing if we can do that, then we can guide them along the way and through the process of guiding them to the right service or product if it’s a good fit, but if we can’t get them in the door in the first place, nothing else matters. Right. So that’s, that’s one tip. And then another one too, is I think business owners often feel like they have to kind of reinvent the wheel. So if any of the listeners there if any of you are, you know, creating content or you know, writing emails to your list or creating, you know, Facebook, Instagram LinkedIn posts or anything like that, you might often think you know, but I’ve said it all already, right? Like I’ve said this, you know, do I really need to say it again and the answer is absolutely yes. You need to say it again and again and again and again and again. This is one of my faves. I felt like a broken record when I showed this on, on copy critiques that I do, but absolutely get used to uncomfortable with repeating yourself. Because the truth is for you, of course, it feels very repetitive because you know, you’re, you’re exposed to it all the time. But with the nature of how the online marketing world works, right, with just the amount of I think I read that, you know, any average person in the US is exposed to between 4010 1000 ads a day. Now, of course, this is including everything from like billboards, you know, maybe T shirts that people are wearing that promotional ended that you pass on the street, like, there’s just so many different avenues through our phones, that this is coming in, right. And so you know, the chances of someone seeing every single one of your posts or checking out everything on your website are really very, very slim to none, right. And so it is so important that once you get clear on what you’re we like talk about the core message, right? Like who you help, and how you help them, it can be a simple one liner, just stating very clearly who you help and how you help them. Once you get clear on something like that, you need to be sharing it all the time, in interviews in posts, right. And it’s something you’ve come back to again and again. And what that repetition does is it starts to etch a specific space, it carves out a specific space in your prospects mind, and they start to associate and remember you for that specific thing. Because if you said it once, two years ago, I can guarantee you they’re not gonna remember, right unless they’re like your best friend or your family. And so it’s also important to make sure that you’re repurposing and repeating key pieces of your message in your copy.
I love it. I think if you said it two weeks ago, nobody’s gonna remember, let alone two years. So exactly. That’s a really great point. And yeah, I’m bringing my master minders here in just over a week and a half, and we’re going to be creating the core message bank, that then you never have to worry about what to write about. I mean, and it will be rather finite, but it’s something you can go really deep in. You know, and so I encourage the listeners out there to think about that. What is your core message? What is your philosophy? And do you have a process? You know, guess what people would love to know about, you know, oh, okay, well, you’re just another one of those. No, I’m not actually. And here’s why. Here’s how I’m different. So I think that’s really, really great. I do want to talk about something personality, I want to go back to that for a second. Because what I find is that there’s a lot of confusion out there as it relates to copy, you know, there’s different kinds of copy, you know, website, copy, and, you know, email sequences and then landing page copy. And then within that they’re like, Okay, well, then I also heard about this thing called brand messaging and voice and, and it can get very, very confusing. So do we have to approach different kinds of copy differently? Or is there some simple way to approach copy? Overall? That’s a
great question. I think so yeah. What I was hearing in that is like, with all these different possibilities of what we can be creating, is there one way to kind of streamline that and that we can feel confident showing up whether it’s to write a landing page to write an email to write our brand story? Like, are these kinds of different things that exist and have their own set of rules? My hearing that right? Or is there like more of a streamlined way? We can just kind of approach it all. Exactly. Yeah. Perfect. So and there’s probably lots of schools of thought out there, I’ll share my belief and my kind of go to is I feel like we often really overcomplicate things. And this we can probably apply to many areas of our life. I mean, you’re a business coach, and I’m sure you see this all the time, too, right? We’re As humans, we just like to overcomplicate things. And so my kind of I always like to go with my gut. And I always like to say, you know, keep it simple and make it work for you. Because if if you don’t, you’re not going to do it. It’s as simple as that, right? So, yes, if you’re interested in figuring out the perfect way to set up your landing page, and you’re interested in doing some of that research or learning more about it, absolutely dive in. But if this is something that you’re just trying to like, check off your list and get it done, because you know, you got to take action and keep moving, then just do the best you can write in a way that feels natural to you keep, you know, some of these core, I think there are some kind of core copy elements that we always need to keep in mind, things that we’ve talked about already on this, in this in the session today is you know, speaking to your ideal client, making sure that you’re infusing some of your own personality, like you know, if you’re, if you’re funny, and you make jokes with clients do that in your copy, you know, if you’re a little bit, maybe a little sarcastic, if that’s your vibe, you know, don’t be afraid to do that in your copy, too. Don’t be afraid to repel people and attract, right because when we repel the wrong people, you’re going to really attract the right ones. And I think there’s often this, this kind of fear around doing that because we think, Oh, no, I want to repel anybody, right? They’re like I could help so many people and then you know, not make as many sales. It’s actually the opposite that is true is that when You’re not afraid to repel some people who just aren’t your vibe who maybe you wouldn’t be friends with, but they wouldn’t hire you in person. Right? That’s okay. There’s plenty of business out there. And so being okay with with playing around with that, and I think I lost track of a question there. Oh, about personality. Yeah. And so my go to is just have fun with it, do your best. And don’t be attached too much to the end result, because copy and your messaging is something that does and very much so should evolve over time. And it’s definitely not a one and done. And we can definitely check you know, certain tasks, create the landing page, send out the emails, we can check those things off, right. But it’s also something that’s naturally gonna evolve over time, just like your business evolves, right. And maybe your ideal client evolves, it’s a natural part of life, to evolve, right? And to learn something better, or to tweak what you’re doing to figure out what you love and the things you kind of want to either let go or transform. And so be okay with that kind of hold it with a, an open hand, right? Don’t don’t grasp it. Like it’s the only there’s only one way and I thought to get it right, because you’re never going to get it done. Just hold it with an open hand do your best and keep moving. That would be like my my biggest advice.
Right? So good. Oh my gosh, and and you and I are directly aligned their simplest simplicity. When we overcomplicate then we go in this mind drama, oh, is this the right way? Guess what, ladies, there is no right way. And what anybody says, right? That’s only because they want to pitch their program, okay? Because it’s really just speak to your person from your heart, be you there’s nothing better than that. But there is one last thing this time is going so quickly, there is one thing that you are masterful at, among other things, but one you didn’t touch on yet. And that is the importance of specificity in our and I would love for you to share a little bit of wisdom on that, on that. So
lately, I think if there’s one piece of copy feedback that I am giving, every single time I review a client’s copy, or I’m training on this stuff, it is around the need to get more specific. And so there’s so much to say about this, let me see if I can keep it concise. Basically, what most of what we see online is a lot of vague, you know, terms, things like you know, create your best life. And there’s nothing wrong with these terms, right? The Create Your Best Life, give Be Healthy, Be the best version of yourself, you know, get rich, be happy, all these kind of heady, high level terms that are really intangible. And what happens is when we leave with that in our copy, we’re sounding like everybody else, first of all, so and there’s no kind of differentiator we’re not standing out from them. And also, it’s just, it’s so heavy and high level and intangible that the reader and our ideal clients can’t really see themselves in the picture, right? Like what it looks like to be the happiest healthiest version for a 17 year old female and call it you know, in high school or whatever, versus like, I don’t know, a 64 year old or 66 year old recently retired man, right, who lives maybe the summer she’s gonna say like, it’s completely different, right? It could mean so many different things. And so I do like to say get specific, and how can we do this, because this is really hard to do, I find that I’ve told that it’s very hard to do. And I like to get wildly specific, this kind of goes back to that sitting down with your girlfriend. And if you like, the easiest way to do this is to summon in your mind, your ideal client, so a specific client you’ve worked with who you absolutely loved, and speak to the specific things, you know, we’re going on with them. Right? So if they were, you know, a single mom, who was raising a, you know, five year old daughter named Carla and a, you know, two year old named Nick, you know, talk about that in your copy, it’s okay to get like crazy, crazy specific because then it just created ads, this level of engagement for the reader, it brings in this component of storytelling, and it just makes you I mean, one of the people I absolutely love was someone I’ve been following online for since 2015, actually, and I’ve been like such a fangirl over her. She I literally like look for she stopped emailing for a while and I missed her emails. I don’t I have like, No, I have like 1000s of unopened emails in my personal email and her emails I actually miss I read every word of them. I mean, talk about making your audience addicts like she is one of my biggest mentors around doing this. And the way she’s able to do that is she gets crazy specific like she’ll talk about you know, being in a bar and in a little town in Pennsylvania with like the you know, the animal heads on the on the ceiling or on the on the wall and like the guys at the bar drinking I don’t know Budweiser, whatever beers they were drinking, right, she gets super, super specific with the details. And of course, this is naturally depending on what you’re talking about and what your industry is, is naturally gonna attract the right people who are gonna be like, Yes, oh my gosh, that was like me this morning or that that’s me right now, and it’s gonna repel some people and that’s okay. But the more we can get specific, the more you’re copying. It’s gonna resonate. And the more memorable, it’s memorable it’s going to be. And that’s really key. Because in today’s world, and just all the noise out there online, if you’re, you know, if you’re not getting seen, you’re not making sales, right? Or if you’re making sales, you’re not, you could be making so much more. And you could be your exposure could be so much higher, you could be connecting with so many more people. And yeah, getting specific. I don’t know the answer your question, Jenny. Yeah, so
good. I think that that example was a really good one. And, yeah, because that’s something that you taught me. And I review my copy to say, Could I be more specific? Could I throw in more details to bring my copy alive, basically, to the reader. So that is so good. Well, thank you so much for your wisdom. And I understand you have something free, something to offer my audience. So let us know what that is.
Yes, thank you so much. Yeah, I’ve created what I’m calling coffee and coffee tips, which is basically each week a one of my best and favorite coffee tips that I am sharing. And you can sign up for that’s completely free, you can unsubscribe anytime. And it’s delivered weekly. And the URL for that is coffee and coffee tips.com. And you can sign up for it and check it out. I’m going to be putting some of my best stuff in there. And it’s only available for subscribers. I’m super, super excited about it. And if that sounds interesting to you definitely sign up.
Yeah, I that now that’s going to be something I really look forward to. Because you always you know, you don’t mess around. This is like, you know, tips that are easy to apply and fun fun to try. Alright,
so sorry, I forgot to mention actually, that was the whole premise of it is the the promises, you know, write better copy in just five minutes a day, every single kind of tip that I share out there is something that you should be able to implement very, very quickly.
Five minutes a day. Okay, this is so good. Ladies, you’ve got two coffee and coffee tips calm and I’ll drop that link in the show notes. Well, where can we find you online? Where can we connect maybe on Insta or somewhere? Where Yeah,
I’m on LinkedIn and Instagram. LinkedIn is my full name. So Jamie Crowe, Chico and then on Instagram, I have copy. Copy tips for Casey. Yeah, copy tips for coaches. I created this recently as I as I began to niche down. I believe that’s it. Well, we can include in the in the show
notes. I’ll be sure to put it in the show notes. Oh my God, you are so awesome. And I love how real you are. And I have no doubt that you’ve already gotten a bunch of fans when this episode goes live. So thank you so much for being here
so much, Judy, and everyone listening. Thank you.
Alright, ladies, thank you for listening. And if you have enjoyed the show, and I’m sure you have right now, would you please take a moment and leave a rating and review especially on iTunes. We were recently ranked in the top 10 of Best Christian women podcasts and in the top 15 of the top Christian business podcast, but we’re going to keep moving up that ladder ranking. So please do leave a rating and review and as always, let us know how we can best serve you. The best way to do that is to go to Judy weber.co/podcast leave me a voice note there just scroll down and you will see the opportunity for you to leave a note and then I’m going to start playing some of these in upcoming episodes. So I look forward to that Jamie once again laugh love you, sister, and thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.