All right, well, welcome to this episode of The joyful scaling podcast. You know every day, ladies pitch me to be on this podcast, and some I happily invite to the microphone. Others I politely say no thank you. Because guesting on podcasts can be a lucrative and fun marketing activity as you provide value to a new audience gaining visibility and solidifying yourself as an expert. And on today’s show, you will hear from the lovely Christine McAlister on podcast guesting strategies. She’s generated well over six figures as a podcast guest and she’s recognized as the best in the world at podcast guesting by seven figure influencer podcasters like John Lee Dumas, with entrepreneurs on fire. And Dana Wilde among others. She is a media expert for the past two decades, and she’s been featured in Inc, Business Insider, The Huffington Post and over 100 podcasts. She’s passionate about helping impact driven entrepreneurs show up, serve and monetize top podcast appearances. So you can scale from six towards seven figures. Let’s welcome Christine to the show. Thank you so much for having me, God, Oh, my goodness, this is gonna be a good one. This is going to be one I would imagine this is going to be in my top 10 episodes for the year. So I would love to start with you sharing your backstory actually, from you know, your first podcast interview eight months pregnant, in the labor and delivery bed, to being interviewed on top shows like entrepreneurs on fire.
Ooh, thank you. So I was looking for a way very early in what was then my business coaching business to reach people. Right, I had been taught by my very first coach to run ads. And while I knew how to do that, because I had been running ads for clients and my marketing agency for a decade, I I was finding that it didn’t quite translate as well as I wanted to a new company to a personal brand. Instead of selling luxury goods, especially at the beginning of my business, right, looking back now, I would say I would never tell somebody at that stage of business to run ads. But that’s the only thing she had been taught. That’s the only thing she knew how to teach, right? Because it had worked so well for her. And so my gut was saying, hey, you need to find another strategy. Right? Living your life on social media isn’t feeling good. I was pregnant after the loss of my first child. So I was dealing with PTSD, I was dealing with anxiety, I was really, really pregnant, all the things. And so I I started writing for some some publications that were accepting guest posts at the time, like Thrive global and like Huffington Post, and I had some success with that. And that was awesome. And there was something in the back of my mind. It was like podcast should do podcast, but I was intimidated. And I had had a pitch template that a friend had sent me sitting in my downloads folder, right? We’re all good intentions go to die for like a year. And I haven’t done anything with it. And one day somebody invited me on their small podcast, and I was like, well, that couldn’t be easier. Sure, why not? Right? I wound up recording it from labor and delivery where I was in monitoring, which Wow, ridiculous.
I’m sorry. But that’s dedication. Okay, that’s the same
as it was, I told the nurses, I needed the room for 20 minutes. And I was really not that like, assertive at the time, but it just came out that way. And they turned off the beeping and let me have my time. And what I found is that even crazy pregnant and laying down in a bed, I really enjoyed it. And so I thought, well, there’s something here, maybe I can get over my resistance and start pitching people. And so that’s what I did. And then, you know, I looked up several years later, and I had been on over 100 podcasts. And I was still business coaching. When people started asking me to teach what I had done. And that’s when I kind of started to realize, oh, maybe this is different than what other people are doing. And it eventually led to a pivot in my business that has had more interest than anything that I’ve done in what is now 17 years of business for myself. Hmm,
wow. Well, you know, podcast guesting I love it. I love hosting, but I really love guesting and why don’t you share with our listeners? Why is that being a guest on a podcast? Why is that the most powerful marketing strategy available today?
Well, I think because it is consumed differently than any other outlet. So, yeah, if you’re a podcast listener, I want you to think about what it is that you what else are you doing when you’re listening to podcasts? So like, Judy, when you’re listening to podcasts, like, what else are you doing?
I’m typically taking a walk or putting on my makeup.
Hmm. Okay, so like something kind of mundane, right? Taking a walk, putting on makeup, something you probably do often, where you’re looking to, like, be educated and entertained. And your attention is really able to go there. Because the other thing is a little bit more mindless, right? Mm hmm. And if you think about all the other ways that we consume access to people, right, social media, videos, on YouTube, ads, any of these places, you really are competing, you’re competing against notifications, you’re competing against ads, you’re competing against all the other posts. And you have a very short window to capture someone’s attention, right like seconds. Whereas with a podcast you’re coming into and I’m talking about being a guest, right? A whole different conversation, having your own podcast, which you and I can both speak to. But being a guest. You’re coming into a an environment where the host has cultivated trust with loyal listeners. And you get to borrow that trust, and that credibility, and basically be endorsed by the host, for 2030 45 minutes, whatever it is, where people are engaged and listening to you. They want to hear what you have to say they want to hear this conversation. They’re already invested. It’s not cold at all. Right? You’re cold without audience isn’t cold, they already come to you warm. And so as one of my smart copywriting friends said, it’s the fastest way to go from cold to Seoul, because you’re moving at the speed of trust, right, rather than at the speed of, you know, jumping into the shouting into the void of Facebook groups, for example. Right. And so, it, it stands out, because with one touch with one interview, people have enough information and a sense of you to self select. As, am I going to go into Judy’s world, as opposed to oh, that what we hear oh, we need to be touched seven times, or 10 times or 12 times or whatever the number is No. One podcast like collapses that timeline and brings in qualified leads.
Wow. Yeah, never. I mean, what you’re saying makes perfect sense. But I never really thought about that. And I love the quote, moving at the speed of trust. That’s a trait that should be a trademark one grab that.
Thank you, Kevin. If you’re listening, my friend Kevin Kwan. He’s a genius.
Yeah, I love that. So you know, you know, now we know why we need to do it. So ladies, if you’re thinking, Yeah, but Judy has all this, whatever, or Christine has all this experience. And of course, they’re not afraid. We started somewhere. And that’s why I especially love Christine, that you shared that you had that podcast pitch template, you know, in your inbox for a year, I think we can all kind of find ourselves in that. And I’m sure you’ll agree with me now, to me, there’s no one pitch that’s going to be perfect for every host. No. So if you’re listening, and we’re gonna you know, Christine has an amazing resource for you. So keep on listening. But don’t get wrapped up in I need the perfect pitch. Once you know, listen to this entire episode, you’re going to get clued in on how to find the right you know, podcasts and kind of how to grab that host attention. But I don’t want fear to stop you. Let 2022 be the year where you say, Ah, I’m gonna choose faith over fear moving forward. Just want to really be intentional about getting that message out. So let’s get into some how tos. First of all, can we speak before we get into how to be a value driven guest on the podcast? What are some tips as far as finding the right podcast and really grabbing that host attention?
Oh, okay. So one of my there are almost 3 million podcasts as of the time of this recording. Now when I started actively tracking this middle of 2021, so six months ago, there were less than 2 million. No way. Yeah. So there’s first thing is there’s never going to be a scarcity of podcasts to get on. You’re never going to run out. There’s always going to be another rabbit hole to go down. Second thing is that can also be really overwhelming if you allow it to be. So I really recommend that you ask your existing audience, your existing community, your existing client base. So client base is going to be like the bottom of the funnel, like the smallest amount of people, but also the most valuable, because they’ve actually paid you or past clients, what I call your Cloneable. Clients, like who would you love to fill your practice with? Ask those Cloneable clients what they’re listening to ask your Facebook group, if you have one, or your LinkedIn group or your email list, right? Your profile, you really want to get a sense of what people are listening to, instead of trying to guess. And this is, of course, the case with any market research. But what I find happens often is kind of the same thing that most of us go through, we start like copywriting Creating content is that we write something that would be interesting to us. Right? And so we’re going to look for shows, just unconsciously, that would be interesting to us and our topics, well, those aren’t the same as what your audience is listening to a lot of the time, right, because they are not in the same place as you that’s why they potentially hiring you. So take the guesswork out of it, as the people who’ve already paid you, the people who love you and follow you. And that will get you enough shows to get a sense of categories and style, and all of the things that you need to be able to start compiling a list of shows to look into the pitch.
Wow, that’s invaluable. Because I’m smiling as you were saying that because as I am working with my team and identifying my top 10 Go twos, I have to admit that while I I think these are podcasts that might be listened to, but you’ve just reminded me to do the obvious ask my peeps. What else do you listen to? Okay, so that’s great. Let’s dive into how once you got the Yes, how can you make sure that you are providing great value and really leveraging that opportunity?
I think that mindset is and I’m sure on the show like the listeners, everybody listening shares this right? But it’s it’s service first. Right? What happens most of the time when you go on a podcast is that you whether or not you know it, you go in as a vampire. You go in as a person who’s just seeking to get what you can, you know, suck the life out of out of the audience out of someone else’s audience. Mm hmm. And like I said, a lot of times we don’t even know that we’re doing it. But of course, we think well, that’s why I’m going on podcasts to get clients. Right. And I actually recently wrote up the outline for a talk called podcast guesting as spiritual practice. Oh, and the reason is because podcast guesting really allows us to practice, like detachment from the outcome and faith and love in a way that writing a post and immediately putting it out, or running an ad and immediately looking for stats does not, because we can show up in total service to have just a valuable conversation with that host, just the two of us. And then that host takes the episode might sit somewhere for a while before it ever gets edited. We don’t have control over when it comes out all of the things. And it just gives us the ability to show up and serve and, and trust and release that the right people will hear it that the right things will come out of it. And if we choose, we can go well, I don’t need any one thing to come out of this. I don’t need this many options. I don’t need this many outreaches I can just trust that I’ve created essentially like an algorithm proof asset that’s going to live online as long as the internet keeps going. Right? Like the host keeps it up. And it’s so different than like a post where it’s like, well, whatever the algorithm was doing at that moment determines the outcome, right? So I think that the most important thing is going in with this idea of like, I’m here to serve and I’m also here to add as cheesy as it sounds. We hear it all the time. Add a lot of value to the host and the audience. And while recognizing what a big deal it is that they are having me on, right, rather than, like, I’m sure we’ve all heard the episodes of like, someone goes in with their talking points, and maybe they’re, you know, more well known, maybe they’re a bigger name. But they’re like, basically, you can feel like, You’re so lucky to have me. Mm hmm. Right? Yeah. And I get those pitches all the time, too. And I’m like, No, I do not want an introduction, thank you, and archive, because you’re clearly only in it for you, or your client, right. And I’m here to create a collaboration and have an awesome, interesting conversation, because that’s what my audience is going to enjoy. And so when you come in with that framework, it kind of just changes the lens on it, everything. Right? And you are seeking to have a conversation, rather than, like, lean back and ask me questions and make me look good. Hmm, that makes sense.
That is so good. I mean, that’s where mindset, with every passing year in business, I find that everything keeps coming back to that to your thoughts as you’re acting, not just the action, but your thoughts as you’re acting and your intentionality around that. That’s so neat to think about having this amazing conversation, to give the host and the audience, this wonderful positive experience that feeds them something like gives them something that they’ve been looking for that they may not even actually maybe knew that they were looking for, but they’re so happy to have found it. Wow, I love that. Okay, so now with that mindset, now that we’re sitting down, and we’re approaching that, you know, one topic or questions that people always ask me is, well, how do you pick a topic? And presented in a different way that the host will actually say, oh, yeah, gotta get gotta go for that one?
The question so we do something we call expert topic extraction, where we, we make a long list of potential topics, like we might say, the same thing three or five different ways. We might say something in a positive way as a positive hook, how to do this, or how not to do this, right, flip it on its head. And then we have a bulleted list of two or three pages. When we sit down to write a pitch, we can look at the topics they’ve had recently, we can look at our topics and see which fits right, what fits the way that they talk about things. What, what’s similar, but they haven’t actually talked about this thing that we could go in and add some value in, I recommend giving like three suggestions in the pitch, here are some things that we could talk about that would make sense for your show that I believe would make sense for your show, right? And that way, like they have a little bit of an idea of your range. But they’re not having to sort through three pages of bullets of things that you could talk about, right? Because you do want to appear to be an expert in the things that you pitch. And so that’s how I would think about it is give them a little bit, give them give them a few options, and they’ll pick the one that sounds most interesting for them.
That’s great. So so when you’re talking about giving them three suggestions, how deep is it just the title? Is it the title suggestion and a very brief like one sentence descriptor? What would you recommend in that regard?
Yeah, I think the title needs to be specific enough that people understand the potential benefit of the benefit. Right? So one of my coaches years ago, Lacey sites taught me this idea of so that Yep, right. So super common parlance. Probably a lot of us have heard of it, but it was, you know, needed to be drilled into my head because I would constantly write something, how to make six figures by being a podcast guest. And we’re just now all I hear in my head is so that, right? Why do we care? Why does anyone else care? I know why, but I have to spell it out. Right? So I think that right, I make six figures from being a podcast guest so that you create a reliable, making this up a reliable stream of warm leads, quality leads, yeah, right. Then it’s like, oh, that solves the problem. I’m laying in bed thinking about right I’m not laying in bed going, how do I make six figures and being a podcast guest but when I’m like, How do I get lead to get off the roller coaster? Then, like okay, now I’ve connected the dots. But yeah, it doesn’t need to be any longer than that.
Okay, Awesome. And before we get to the common mistakes, one last question. So when we I guess maybe this goes off topic, I was just curious, you know, the follow up, I know that it’s easy for me to miss emails. So before I tell you, you know, I could tell my people what I think but but what are your thoughts on the follow up and the need to follow up on that initial pitch?
You know, it’s so interesting. I know, there’s a range of opinions about this. In my, I guess, how old is my kid that I was eight months pregnant with, this is how we’re getting back into it. Okay, in my five and a half years, pitching podcasts for myself and for others, I have never, ever once booked a podcast and follow up of all of the shows that I’ve ever pitched. Now, I have my theories about that. But having you know, all these hundreds of shows and having zero evidence for the fact that it ever worked. I do not recommend following up in this in this medium in this platform simply because of my own experience. Right now, there might like you said, you might miss emails, you might be glad for someone to follow up. If I had any. I used to do it. And then I looked up one day. And it’s kind of like that TSA question that they used to ask people of whether or not you were handed anything suspicious. And they asked that for like decades. And then they finally did some kind of internal review and realize that they had never caught someone with that question. And they eliminated it. When I finally when I finally looked at my stats, I was like, well, this seems like a waste of time. Wow, what an interesting, interesting,
interesting, factual situation. I mean, I just booked last week, somebody who I was grateful that she followed up, so So take that as it is, but that’s a really interesting statistic there. Okay, let’s jump into common mistakes to avoid, so that the return on investment on your appearance is worthwhile.
Yeah. Okay. So when people come to me, and they say, like, Hey, I’ve been on a few podcasts, or I’ve been on a bunch of podcasts, and it really didn’t see anything from them. Usually, it’s one or both of two things. So the first one is that you’re not speaking clearly about what it is that you do, and giving, like, illustrative story examples. I call those stories that silently sell. Because you’re not selling, you’re telling a story that’s going to be memorable. Right? So if you can tell a story from your own life, or a story from a client’s lives that might relate to the podcasts that you’re on. That’s, that’s super valuable. Because of course, we know that we learn through stories, right. And I have heard people say, like, Hey, I went on a bunch of podcasts to promote my book. And somehow I looked up at the end of the interviews, and I hadn’t even talked about the book. Right? So just like anything, there is this nuance of being prepared. Having some ideas of what to say in case you go blank, I call it the sticky note exercise, you can line either side of your monitor with sticky notes that prompt you a certain stories or whatever, um, but also being conversational. Right. When I was a professor, one of the things that I taught was speech and the art of not being scripted, but not being totally improv ad lib. Right. And that takes practice. It takes practice, which is why like, I don’t recommend that you on the equivalent of at least here in the US like the Today Show, on your first podcast, like don’t shoot for that, because you’re probably going to have a panic attack, or at least slept through your clothes, right? And so, so kind of going in like this The question I get a lot Oh, well, can I ask them to send me questions ahead of time, so I can be prepared? No, no, you may not. Right. Like this is their show. This is their roles. If they want to send your questions, they send you questions, but I find the trend is very much like raw, real conversation. It’s your job to show up prepared for that interview by listening to past interviews. They’ve given you all the information that you will ever need. So you got to prep. Right? Again, it’s their stage. So going in just kind of like lackadaisical would be one one big mistake that people make all the time. And then another one would be more Not giving one clear call to action at the end. So, you know, an example would be like, Oh, you can find me anywhere at life W passion, right? Like, that means that people are going to go nowhere to find me at life W passion, right? We want to create podcast offer alignment. And what that means is what Judy and I talked about today should make sense, with what, where I tell people to go if you want to learn more about me at the end of the episode, which should also make sense for what I’m doing in my business, right. So whatever problem that you solve on the interview, should lead directly into the next problem that you’re going to solve with your one call to action at the end, which will lead directly into the problem or problems that you solve in your business. And so, this looks different, depending on how your business is structured. Right? It’s not just like, oh, everyone should do a quiz or whatever. Like, it’s going to be different based on how you’re set up to handle incoming leads. But one clear call to action that bridges that gap. Like, a lot of people get this wrong. So there you go.
So that’s curious. No, I’m just thinking, because I typically have a call to action to one of my, you know, a masterclass or to my ultimate scaling guide, or whatever. But then I also say, but I’m also available at Judy Weber co everywhere. What do you think about that? Does that make sense?
You know, what I get, I get why. But the thing is, like, all that stuff is going to be in the shownotes. If people want to internet stalk you, right, and connect with you on their favorite platform, those social links are going to be there. What my belief is that they should hear you say, one place to go, like, you should hear you. Oh, my gosh, I love Judy, she’s fantastic. I need to go get her training on this topic and go more in depth with what we just talked about. Like that’s the logical next step. For me. There’s only one, it’s kind of like landing page. Right? Like, you can’t go fart around on the website, you either have to put your email in or you’re out. Right?
Yeah, I love that. Wow, that is so good. Oh, my gosh, okay. Something came to me just now, before we wrap up, I’ve got asked this question. There are coming up more and more podcast booking agencies, or even coaches, that and I know, I know that you teach how to do this. And I’m sure as a part of what you do, you do that. But I but I, but there are PR agencies and that kind of thing. So is that really necessary? Or how necessary? Is it? I guess, is the question. Yeah, good
question. Obviously, I’m biased, because it’s like a part of what we do, right. But here like i My intent is to be disruptive in the way that this is done. And the reason is, because I get pitches from agencies all the time for my podcast. I know you do too. And and they’re, they’re spray and pray. They’re boilerplate. I even got one one time, that was like, I love your podcast, and especially like bracket x episode. Oh, my God.
Yeah, that’s pretty much copy and paste, I’d
say that it was her publicist on behalf of their client, and I wanted to write the client and be like, however much you’re paying his publicist like it’s too much, because this is ridiculous, right? So what what I have found to be so powerful, and what that spray and pray approach doesn’t allow for is having the pitch come from yourself. Whether you have someone who’s helping you create it, and you finalize it and make sure it’s in your voice, or whether you’re doing it yourself or a team member who can, you know, knows you super well, like, that allows you to have the relationship from the beginning because you’re showing up differently than like, here I am hiring an agency to take me out of it. They’re gonna send me a message when I have a saying I’m going to show up not knowing much about the place, right? As opposed to like, I want to if I’m going to go on a show my intention, and what I teach is, this is the start of a long term relationship. This is not transaction. Thank you. What’s my next show? Right because I’m just here to fulfill like a number of shows. No, I want to be on shows that people that I want to be friends with. Right, and that I want to meet up One person was, and that I want to affiliate for and vice versa. And I just want to, like explore with and play with, and make a part of my, my network and my world. And so when you use a podcast pitch and a podcast appearance as the entree into that kind of a relationship, then it’s like, okay. The dynamic completely changes from vampire to like, long term collaborator. Right? And so, you know, there is like, yeah, there’s so much need for someone to help you get on shows. I mean, that’s why eventually pivoted from business coaching is so many people asked me to do it that I was like, I guess this is the thing, right? For sure. And it’s, it’s, how do you do it? It’s, you know, are you spraying and praying? Are you doing adaptive work to really try and match up energetically, and values wise, and all of the things to create a long term relationship? That’s what I would say about that is so
good, because I love that you. I love your approach. It’s strategic, it’s smart, it’s streamlined, and, you know, investing with with you, rather than throwing 1000s of dollars at a PR agency to kind of do it totally hands off to me. I mean, to me, it’s a no brainer. So all right. Well, this has been wonderful. So thank you, Christine. I know you have an amazing podcast guest checklist for our audience. Would you mind telling us a little bit more about that, and and I’ll have the link in the show notes.
Yeah. So what I have done is tied together everything in sequential order. So even more than we had a chance to talk about today. And you can download that for free. And then you can keep it in front of you when you’re researching or pitching or going on a show and like checkboxes is all of us high achievers love to do. And you can grab that at life with passion comm slash checklist.
Beautiful, beautiful, excellent. Any last minute words of wisdom, anything on your heart that you didn’t cover or anything you want to emphasize before we end for today?
Well, as you know, if you’re listening to this, or watching this, you podcasting is just such an exploding platform right now. And the if you’re here, like doing this work, the world needs your voice, right? I mean, the world needs what you have to say. That’s one of my favorite parts of talking about this and teaching this is being able to elevate people who maybe they’re not the loudest, but their voices are the most important. And in our, you know, typically the loudest ones, the most controversial ones, right? are the ones that get heard. And I just I think like, as you and I, as you were mentioning in the pre chat duty, like it’s it’s just worth starting. It’s worth starting. It’s worth trying. And like your your your voice your message like you’re calling what you’re here to do is is worth it.
Yeah. Amen. I second that. 1,000% Christine, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful episode. Thank you for her journey. All right. Well, thank you so much, ladies for listening. Please, if you haven’t not yet subscribed, make sure you do that. We don’t want to miss another episode. And if you would, please take a moment and leave us a review. It means the world and it also helps us to know what we’re doing right and where we can improve. So thanks again and we will talk soon